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Why are Sega, Capcom and Konami trying to kill off the beat

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A sobering look at the release sheet

Today I underwent two important realisations. One: that I'd managed to get as far as the breakfast table (or at least, the breakfast window sill) without cottoning onto the fact that my trousers were on backwards. Two: that three of my most anticipated games are coming out in the UK before the end of February 2013.... read more

Why are Sega, Capcom and Konami trying to kill off the beat

Postby OXM ETboy » 29 Oct 2012, 22:24

I saw that hastily deleted comment, comabob ;) Fear not. We're cool with the God of War series round these parts.
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Re: Why are Sega, Capcom and Konami trying to kill off the b

Postby Plamsa wing » 29 Oct 2012, 23:16

I still don't understand why Anarchy Reigns was pushed back for those of us not in Japan. Such a stupid move when it was apparently ready to be shipped and there wasn't really much coming out at the time.

Still, I shall be getting it next year... I hope.
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Re: Why are Sega, Capcom and Konami trying to kill off the b

Postby msbhvn » 29 Oct 2012, 23:32

Those three games you mention are hack-and-slash. Beat-'em-ups are either one-on-one (Street Fighter) or scrolling (Final Fight).

Other than that, I agree that save Metal Gear, these games have been sent out to die. DmC I'm not sure about after playing the mediocrity-fest that is Enslaved, I'm waiting for reviews on that one. Anarchy Reigns has been treated very badly due to Sega's souring relationship with Platinum, leading to Bayonetta 2 being exclusive to the Nintendo Fire Engine Noise (say the real name out loud three times quickly to get the joke).

I've been bewildered by Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance since it was announced some time in 1997. Do they really expect it to sell well when they turn an established franchise on its head and release an out-of-genre title starring a character everyone hated? Maybe they want to top OXM's "great games no one played" list of 2013?

Speaking of OXM and its "great games no one played" list, I bought Binary Domain today, which I immediately put on my backlog pile with the full intention of playing Borderlands 2 tomorrow instead. I hope you're happy with yourselves. :oops:
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Re: Why are Sega, Capcom and Konami trying to kill off the b

Postby OXM ETboy » 29 Oct 2012, 23:38

I'm really hoping somebody from Ninja Theory spots this and comments - not, I imagine, that they'll have much say in when DmC sees release :(

Those three games you mention are hack-and-slash. Beat-'em-ups are either one-on-one (Street Fighter) or scrolling (Final Fight).


Sir, thou liest.

"Beat 'em up (also known as brawler) is a video game genre featuring melee combat between the protagonist and an improbably large number of underpowered enemies. These games typically take place in urban settings and feature crime-fighting and revenge-based plots, though some games may employ historical or fantasy themes."
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Re: Why are Sega, Capcom and Konami trying to kill off the b

Postby msbhvn » 29 Oct 2012, 23:43

Hack-and-slash has its roots in beat-'em-ups like Final Fight, but the addition of combo meters and buyable/unlockable moves made it a different genre. Think modern Italian evolving from Latin.

And I trust Wikipedia about as far as I can throw a tractor, but from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hack_and_slash

The term "hack and slash" is today used to refer to a distinct genre of 3D third-person, weapon-based, beat 'em up action games in the style of Devil May Cry, including games such as Onimusha, Ninja Gaiden, Knights Contract, God of War, Heavenly Sword, and Bayonetta.
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Re: Why are Sega, Capcom and Konami trying to kill off the b

Postby SidTheSloth » 29 Oct 2012, 23:54

I'm completely with you on the whole 'why release them at the same time?' thing Ed, games like this are often simple to learn and difficult to master. I loved the poo out of the first devil may cry as i had time to practice and learn all the nuances. Unfortunately i didn't grant the same time to Bayonetta or either of the later DMC's if im honest but it's a genre i still have a fond affection for. Out of the three i'm most interested in AR, but i'd probably (and may still at a later date) have picked up DMC if they were split further apart.

As you've got me reminiscing, it doesn't quite sit alongside these games genre wise but Onimusha was one of my other favourite series of japanese devs that surely deserves something of a reboot? I know it caught sequelitis and the quality dropped but i loved it!

msbhvn wrote:DmC I'm not sure about after playing the mediocrity-fest that is Enslaved, I'm waiting for reviews on that one.

Speaking of OXM and its "great games no one played" list, I bought Binary Domain today, which I immediately put on my backlog pile with the full intention of playing Borderlands 2 tomorrow instead. I hope you're happy with yourselves. :oops:


You call Enslaved mediocre and then admit you bought Binary Domain? :| I really really don't get the fuss about BD, i see people all over this and other sites saying how decent it is but i could find nothing special about it at all. Enslaved may have some mediocre gameplay elements but the story is great - hmm, sounds a bit like Mass Effect 2/3 when i describe it like that? :?
Last edited by SidTheSloth on 29 Oct 2012, 23:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why are Sega, Capcom and Konami trying to kill off the b

Postby OXM ETboy » 29 Oct 2012, 23:55

"Hack-and-slash has its roots in beat-'em-ups like Final Fight, but the addition of combo meters and buyable/unlockable moves made it a different genre."

I'm not sure about that logic. Are DOOM and Call of Duty: Modern Warfare different genres? How about Silent Hill and Resident Evil? Because you can point to similar mechanical differences there - and regarding your Wiki quote, the beat 'em up piece makes mention of Bayonetta, God of War, etc.

I'm prepared to allow "distinct subgenre", which means my headline can remain as is, more or less. Everyone's a winner ;)

Oh god, this is a discussion about semantics isn't it.
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Re: Why are Sega, Capcom and Konami trying to kill off the b

Postby SidTheSloth » 29 Oct 2012, 23:56

Isn't the HD reboot of Zone of The Enders out soon too? That's in the same genre (i think - it appears to be open to the ongoing debate above - and no doubt soon below - this post) too really, or is it discounted as it's released before xmas and isn't exactly a new title (although it is new to xbox i think?)
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Re: Why are Sega, Capcom and Konami trying to kill off the b

Postby OXM ETboy » 29 Oct 2012, 23:59

SidTheSloth wrote:That's in the same genre


Why must you muddy already-muddied waters, Sid. WHY.

Agreed that Zone is worth buying. Not sure when it's out...
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Re: Why are Sega, Capcom and Konami trying to kill off the b

Postby msbhvn » 30 Oct 2012, 00:13

I'll take "distinct sub-genre". Beat-'em-up evokes Street Fighter and Final Fight to me, 3D stuff like Bayonetta is different enough to be named differently, so yes... semantics. :lol:

I never had a PS2, and so never played ZoE. Don't tell me it was some kind of genius cult game that I must try, my backlog pile might topple and kill me. :shock:

I did make a rather hasty judgement of Enslaved, which I rage-quit over the stupid cloud-surfing and Monkey not wanting to travel in the direction I told him to, but when the mechanics are all wonky, you have to wonder why Capcom felt Ninja Theory were a better choice than Platinum to reinvent Devil May Cry.
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Re: Why are Sega, Capcom and Konami trying to kill off the b

Postby comabob » 30 Oct 2012, 00:20

OXM ETboy wrote:I saw that hastily deleted comment, comabob ;) Fear not. We're cool with the God of War series round these parts.



I only deleted it cos i thought id check to make sure GOW Ascension is actually coming out next xmas...

Apparently its out in March.

The last beat em up i genuinely enjoyed (before GOW3) was the Splatterhouse remake.
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Re: Why are Sega, Capcom and Konami trying to kill off the b

Postby SidTheSloth » 30 Oct 2012, 00:24

OXM ETboy wrote:Why must you muddy already-muddied waters, Sid. WHY.


It's a gift... One that i've not yet learned to control! :)

msbhvn wrote:I never had a PS2, and so never played ZoE. Don't tell me it was some kind of genius cult game that I must try, my backlog pile might topple and kill me. :shock:

I did make a rather hasty judgement of Enslaved, which I rage-quit over the stupid cloud-surfing and Monkey not wanting to travel in the direction I told him to, but when the mechanics are all wonky, you have to wonder why Capcom felt Ninja Theory were a better choice than Platinum to reinvent Devil May Cry.


They weren't the best games i've ever played, but they were pretty damn good fun, robot/mech hack-n-beat-em-n-slash-em-up type affair with a nonsense but inoffensive plot. Seem to recall the first one sold pretty well, which had absolutely nothing to do with the fact there was a demo of MGS 2 included - seems they're trying to make lightning strike twice as the HD remake (out 30th November) comes with access to the MGS:Revengeance demo!

There were a couple of rage inducing moments in Enslaved, some of the enemies were beyond irritating, but if you persevered the story was worth it! :)
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Re: Why are Sega, Capcom and Konami trying to kill off the b

Postby Plamsa wing » 30 Oct 2012, 02:42

Damn you Sid of reminding me of Zone of the Enders HD collection! Really enjoyed the first game on the PS2, might have to bug the sister to get me that for christmas, god knows shes keeps asking me what I want. Can't decide which platform I should "make" her get it on though.

Speaking of Hack and Slash, anyone play Spartan: Total Warrior? Bought it on the Gamecube when I get fed up with God of War on the PS2, I remember it being pretty damn good.

Also shame on those that have mentioned Bayonetta 2. :cry:
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Re: Why are Sega, Capcom and Konami trying to kill off the b

Postby SidTheSloth » 30 Oct 2012, 06:39

Plamsa wing wrote:god knows shes keeps asking me what I want.


Is it just me or am i getting damned an awful lot lately? :cry:

You should freak her out next time she asks & tell her what you told me & Grummy! :wink:

And unsurprisingly given my love of warrior/hack-n-slash/greek mythology i did play spartan, on th'xbox - enjoyed it despite its simplicity and tendency to freeze (the latter being the reason i never actually finished it).
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Re: Why are Sega, Capcom and Konami trying to kill off the b

Postby Grummy » 30 Oct 2012, 13:06

Someone says 'beat-em-up' and I think Streets of Rage, Double Dragon and games like that. I wouldn't even put Golden Axe in the same genre personally, I've always called it a hack-em-up. I make the distinction simple, if I'm punching, kicking or headbutting you as I move through the level, it's a Beat-em-Up, if I'm using weapons primarily, then it's a hack-em-up or shoot-em-up. The only recent Beat-em-up I've played was Sleeping Dogs. It has evolved, from Streets of Rage, but it's the perfect example of a modern Beat-em-up. DMC, GoW, they're not beat-em-ups at all, and never will be. Anyone who suggests otherwise is wrong. Why? Because you don't beat people up, you hack the crap out of them. The police would make a very real distinction between punching and kicking someone and hacking them to pieces with a sword then shooting them in the face, and the same should go for games.

I can't agree with lumping games like DMC and GoW in the beat-em-up category if 3rd person shooters are allowed a separate distinction. Back in the 16 bit days, they were basically the same games with either brawling, melee weapons or shooting weapons, but all had separate distinctions as Beat/Hack/Shoot-em-up, even the magazine publications at the time referred to them in this way, but today shooters are granted separate status but brawlers and weapon fighting games are lumped into one category? Naaah, sorry, it doesn't fly with me, they're different games, always have been.
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