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Modern games are "obscenely accessible", The Bureau is a "ve

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2K Marin talks up the challenge factor of its XCOM shooter

The Bureau: XCOM Declassified is going to kick your arse to hell and back, according to 2K Marin's creative director Morgan Gray. What's more, it's going to have your arse stuffed and mounted, then invite its lady friends over to throw darts at it. That's an Intolerable Cruelty reference, yes. You know what else is cruel and intolerant? The Bureau: XCOM Declassified, that's what.... read more

Modern games are "obscenely accessible", The Bureau is a "ve

Postby Insaneyokel » 01 May 2013, 11:17

They just have to be careful to load it too much against the player.
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Modern games are "obscenely accessible", The Bureau is a "ve

Postby Grummy » 01 May 2013, 11:27

I hate this arrogant, backslapping, bro-fist mentality of gamers who revel in this 'we're old skool and that makes us better' attitude. I grew up with gaming, from its first steps in the home to what we have today, I've seen it all and played everything I could, this makes me an 'old skool' gamer by default and never do I think it's a badge of honour or that it gives me any right or reason to look down on modern gamers who may like casual gaming.

Games have always been about 1 thing. Fun. How a player gets their kicks from the games they play is down to them, and yes, if that means you want to play tough, challenging games that test you, then great, go for it. It doesn't make you better than anyone else though. I loathe the suggestion that wanting hard games is a characteristic of 'old skool' gamers. If they want to make a challenging game then great, more power too them, but enough of the 'hard is better' crap, it's getting old and tired. Fun is all that matters.
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Re: Modern games are "obscenely accessible", The Bureau is a

Postby CunningSmile » 01 May 2013, 12:54

Grummy wrote:I hate this arrogant, backslapping, bro-fist mentality of gamers who revel in this 'we're old skool and that makes us better' attitude. I grew up with gaming, from its first steps in the home to what we have today, I've seen it all and played everything I could, this makes me an 'old skool' gamer by default and never do I think it's a badge of honour or that it gives me any right or reason to look down on modern gamers who may like casual gaming.

Games have always been about 1 thing. Fun. How a player gets their kicks from the games they play is down to them, and yes, if that means you want to play tough, challenging games that test you, then great, go for it. It doesn't make you better than anyone else though. I loathe the suggestion that wanting hard games is a characteristic of 'old skool' gamers. If they want to make a challenging game then great, more power too them, but enough of the 'hard is better' crap, it's getting old and tired. Fun is all that matters.


Agreed. I've been a gamer since the Master System days so I too and am an 'old skool' gamer. How many games did I ever manage to finish to completion prior to the PS2 era? Zero. How many do I remember fondly rather than as a source of disappointment and frustration? Zero.

If you want a masocistic kick from playing games that make you want to throw your controller through your TV more power to you, but don't look down your nose at me because I want to relax and enjoy myself and my (unbroken) electrical equipment.
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Re: Modern games are "obscenely accessible", The Bureau is a

Postby FishyGinger » 01 May 2013, 13:05

Similar thoughts here but in some cases I do like a challenge. I just don't feel like I'm any more or less superior depending on what hardness I set the game on.

And you never completed a game before the PS2 era...? Really? Do you have dementia and forget where you left games or what buttons did what? Not a single game? I'm calling you trout on that, I think that's a fibula.
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Re: Modern games are "obscenely accessible", The Bureau is a

Postby CunningSmile » 01 May 2013, 14:11

FishyGinger wrote:Similar thoughts here but in some cases I do like a challenge. I just don't feel like I'm any more or less superior depending on what hardness I set the game on.

And you never completed a game before the PS2 era...? Really? Do you have dementia and forget where you left games or what buttons did what? Not a single game? I'm calling you trout on that, I think that's a fibula.


No fib I swear, if it wasn't difficulty spikes that came out of no where it was stories that barely qualified as such and so I got bored. It wasn't really until the PS2 era that most developers bothered with plot, probably because the concept of sound and dialogue was only a few generations old at that point. I think the closest I came was Metal Gear Solid on the PS1, and that I never got past one of the later boss fights (maybe Vulcan Raven?) as I got fed up.

Never stopped me from optimistically buying games in the hopes the story laid out on the cover blurb would bear some sembalance to the game I would end up playing :(
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Re: Modern games are "obscenely accessible", The Bureau is a

Postby Tug » 01 May 2013, 16:25

Games are supposed to be fun. If you want a hard game, play any game on the hardest difficulty.
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Re: Modern games are "obscenely accessible", The Bureau is a

Postby captainhetty » 01 May 2013, 17:16

I agree with everything Grummy and the others said.

I play games when I'm chilling out and relaxing, and if/when a game starts frustrating me to the point I want to shout and swear, I switch it off. I don't want games to kick my ass, or 'challenge' me to the point I can't finish them, I just want to enjoy playing them. I played Mass Effect through the first time on (much to my boyfriend's amusement) narrative difficulty, because quite frankly if I'm playing something with a lot of narrative and a story, I'm more interested in that than how much health an enemy has or how much damage their weapons do.

Accessible wins over difficult any day as far as I'm concerned.
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Re: Modern games are "obscenely accessible", The Bureau is a

Postby SilentDark » 01 May 2013, 21:18

Morgan Grey is right, how dare these companies create games suited to multiple skill levels and play styles. I mean attracting the largest possible audience? That's for ladyboys, real men play games on the hardest difficulty setting, what's that, you played Mass Effect on Normal, heretic, casual gamer scum. You are everything wrong with the world, it's because of people like you we're in this economic crisis, god why do you exist? Stop existing!

Or alternatively Morgan maybe making games more accessible has created a larger audience, this means studios can make more money which allows them to create more ambitious games. You see it all started when we discovered this wonderful thing called difficulty levels, we usually have three, Easy Normal and Hard, some games go far beyond this with anywhere betwenn five and ten different difficulty levels. You see Morgan, I can call you Morgan? Bioware games are not really about the game, never really have been, you can play them on the hardest difficulty level, challenge yourself if you want but there is no shame turning the difficulty levels to minimum and just enjoying the wonderfully well crafted stories and characters within. When I look back on Baldur's Gate 2 I don't think of the challenge it was getting to grips with AD&D 2e or learning what THAC0 meant. I think of Minsc and his miniture giant space hamster Boo, I think of Jon Irenicus and how he was simultaneously pitiable and a monster. I remember romancing Aerie, and the joy of fatherhood with her. I remember offering a part of myself to save my hated enemy Sarevok. Does this make me less of a gamer? Should I go out and buy Imagine Babies? No. I am a gamer, have been since I first picked up an Atari joystick to play Battle Zone on my 2600. I'm not afraid of a challenge but just because I haven't beaten every game I ever played, just because I don't automatically set the difficulty levels at maximum doesn't mean you get to look down on me. Games are meant to be fun, they are meant to be enjoyed, this can mean different things for different people but most importantly games games are meant for everyone, not just the elitist snobs who think beating a game at the highest difficulty is something to be proud of. Save a life, protect the weak, fight injustice, care for the less fortunate, then you can talk about an accomplishment worth boasting about.
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Re: Modern games are "obscenely accessible", The Bureau is a

Postby Drainwater » 01 May 2013, 23:30

CunningSmile wrote:
Grummy wrote:Agreed. I've been a gamer since the Master System days so I too and am an 'old skool' gamer. How many games did I ever manage to finish to completion prior to the PS2 era? Zero. How many do I remember fondly rather than as a source of disappointment and frustration? Zero.


You...you don't include Kirby's Adventure on that list do you...? :(

I do agree, the main point of games is to have fun. My major complaint with games being "too accessible" is that there is a gigantic amount of distance between difficulty levels in some of the more recent titles. "Normal" does generally feel too easy, while "Hard" seems an exponential leap in some cases, almost as if to compensate. We often don't have a middle ground for those of us who want to leave the kiddy pool but are too afraid to go straight to the deep end of the adult pool.
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Re: Modern games are "obscenely accessible", The Bureau is a

Postby Grummy » 02 May 2013, 11:00

The reason that Dark Souls is so good with this is that it isn't difficult, not really, it just requires players to pay attention. It doesn't have difficulty settings so it doesn't need to artificially bump or reduce the challenge. I honestly get the impression that difficulty wasn't actual a real consideration when making these games, rather they just designed Demon/Dark Souls to work in a specific fashion and they found that a lot of modern gamers don't quite understand them, or at least, they didn't, and they found them hard because they're so very different. Once you learn the game, you can see and feel it getting easier. That's why they call it 'old skool', because back in the day players had to learn how to play each game properly, today games are, very accessible. This isn't a bad thing. The Developers/gamers who parade around with this 'old skool hardcore gamer' badge of 'honour' conveniently forget that back in the day, games were made harder by simply stacking the odds against you and tweaking the game to make it brutally unfair, they didn't have the processing power to make complex games where the true difficulty lies in the skill of the player. Can this new XCOM be more like Dark Souls, difficult at first but easy as you learn, or will it create false difficulty by stacking the odds? We shall see.
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Re: Modern games are "obscenely accessible", The Bureau is a

Postby SilentDark » 02 May 2013, 14:09

Dark Souls was obviously going to come up time and again in this issue because it's big talking point is it's difficulty. I have some issues with this game not related to the difficulty, the biggest one is that section of the fandom that if you dare complain about the difficulty will tear into you as if you'd just punted a puppy across a football field, these fans showed their opinions of the rest of us came to a head when the developers said they wanted to make DS2 more accessible and many fans took this to mean that the game would be "dumbed down" forcing the developers to make it perfectly clear that they had no intention of toning down the difficulty. The militant "hardcore" gamers really need to get a life and realise that not everyone has the time or dedication to spend hours upon hours mastering a game. Some people just want to....have fun :shock:

Developers shouldn't play into the "hardcore" mentality. It's worth remembering than many games back in the "good old days" were hard because QA back than was even worse than it is now, plenty of games had clunky controls, poor collision detection and insanely unfair difficulty where the computer would actively cheat in order to beat you. Many times victory came due to luck not skill and that kind of victory just feels hollow.
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Re: Modern games are "obscenely accessible", The Bureau is a

Postby battfink83 » 05 May 2013, 23:24

SilentDark wrote: You see it all started when we discovered this wonderful thing called difficulty levels, we usually have three, Easy Normal and Hard, some games go far beyond this with anywhere betwenn five and ten different difficulty levels.


i actually wish this wasnt the case with alot of games, because most of the time the devs just cheat.

some games are paced and created brilliantly, the difficulty is just right and everything fits, games like COD where they just throw super duper aimbot skilllllzzzzzzZZZZzzz in and infinately respawning enemies with infinate frags is pathetic. also gears of war, fun on insane, but, whats this? im a 20 stone musclehead draped in armour that drops from one round to my tank vest? lol

i dont mind a challenge and often play games i enjoy through again on the hardest difficulty but most devs do it cheaply and lazy
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